I’m screaming??? So my cat knows I get upset when he steps on my paintings (not yelling or anything I think he just sees me spend hours trying to cover up what his paws do) in my “studio” which is a crammed small storage closet with painting all over the floor drying , so like I’m in there rn and I saw him try to get to point A to point b but it was impossible for him to jump over so like he realized the matte parts were dry and like he was stepping on the corners of the painting and every step he’d look at his paw to see if he fucked up and honestly it was the most thoughtful thing ever I don’t ever wanna hear anyone ever say that cats don’t care
Everything is topsy turvy and I need an outlet like Tumblr used to be for me. I don’t know if it really still can be, but we’ll see. This will probably be an unnecessarily long post full of mundane details of how my life has changed that most of my remaining followers won’t care much about because it has been so. long. since I’ve been online and I don’t blame anyone if they’ve completely forgotten who I am. Hell, I expect it, that’s perfectly normal. Anyways. Without further ado.
Casually being reminded by @nofuckinginthelibrary’s binge of the 100 that Murphy is awful and no redemption arc will make me forgive his actions. Literally I hate Murphy so fucking much
HE TORTURES THAT GIRL FOR FUN OKAY THAT AIN’T CHAOTIC NEUTRAL
I’m sort of baffled by people who think Christmas trees aren’t a religious symbol…you put them up in celebration a holiday named for the birth of the Christian messiah. Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists and Jains and Sikhs etc…we don’t put trees up for our religious holidays. It’s literally your thing you do for your Christian holiday. How would that not be religious?
Pagans do it too because it is an old Getman/Scandinavian custom. But it isn’t Jewish.
To be more specific, the custom of the Christmas Tree comes from the older tradition of having a “Yule/Jule Log” as in an actual log that would be ceremonially burned to ensure that the sun would come back after the Winter Solstice. Much like ‘Santa Claus’ who was also adopted from his original origins–both the historical figure of St. Nicholas and the Pagan figure of Jólnir “Yule figure”, Odin’s aspect as leader of the of the Wild Hunt who influenced a great deal of the ‘myth’ of ‘Santa’–to suit the ‘Holidays’, both to retain the cultural figure and later as they came to be celebrated in the commercial sense. As well as the date of Christmas itself, which was originally placed on December 25th because that was already the date of the ancient Roman festival of Sol Invictus, which Christians at the time were attempting to discourage the celebration of as Pagans became an increasing minority within the Roman Empire.
So, to answer the initial question, Christmas trees are actually
absolutely not part of the Christian celebration of Christmas, they’re a
Pagan tradition that was adopted to the celebration as the old Norse and Pagan traditions were retained from the traditional Jul celebrations as Germanic and Scandinavian Europe were increasingly Christianized.
TL;DR: Christmas trees have fuck-all to do with Jesus, they’re a European cultural tradition focusing on the Winter Solstice that has survived since pre-Christian times.
I hope this helps clear things up!
Actually, no—it clears nothing up. The pagan origins of the Christmas tree (which, as @thgiledelirium pointed out, are somewhat tenuous) are completely irrelevant to my point. Regardless of ancient inspirations, the tree has evolved to be a symbol of Christmas specifically.
It doesn’t matter if the trees have anything to do with the Nativity story.
Symbol of Christmas = Christian. Period.
The only instance where they actually have evolved to be secular is in the former Soviet Union, where they were stripped of the Christmas affiliation under communism and made as symbols of the state’s New Year’s celebration.
Outside of that context, the tree is only part of a Christian celebration, and therefore is a religious symbol.
I understand your point, but I feel that there’s a difference between actual Christian symbols and symbols that are culturally affiliated with Christmas. Evergreen trees have been culturally and mythologically significant since long before Christianity.
Setting aside the pagan origins of the tree. If we want to be very specific, the modern Christmas tree rose in popularity in Germany in the 1600s, and mainly stayed there–spreading with German immigrants to other counties, but considered by most conservative Christians to be a ‘pagan’ symbol–until about 1846 when Queen Victoria brought the ‘Christmas tree’ into fashion. Even then, Christmas trees didn’t fully catch on until the 1890s.
So again, we aren’t looking at any particular Christian symbol, but rather a fad of association that rose within the fashions of the previous century as a derivative of the Victorian influence on European and American cultures.
Again, your points are interesting but irrelevant.
The origin of the Christmas tree is completely meaningless within the context of this argument. You say there’s a difference between “actual Christian symbols” and symbols that are “culturally affiliated” with Christmas, but that’s viewpoint that could only be held by somebody who is culturally Christian to begin with, thus proving my point.
Christmas trees can only seem “just cultural” and not religious to people who are of Christian origin.
If you’re not of Christian origin, then a Christmas tree is inherently religious because it still falls under the umbrella of things belonging to Christianity and Christian culture.
Let me try to illustrate this for you.
This is the picture you’re seeing:
However, that’s not the whole picture. This is the whole picture:
Christmas trees are religious not because of how they do or not relate to the Christian bible, they’re religious because they belong only to Christian culture, and regardless of how “secular” something is within Christian culture, it’s still inherently Christian.
Secular Christianity is not legitimate secularism. An oak tree growing in a park is actually secular. It does not belong to any one culture or religious group. It’s completely neutral. A Christmas tree in somebody’s living room, regardless of how religious they are, still belongs to Christianity. If something only belongs to one circle on the wheel, then it’s not secular it’s religious.
So what you are saying is that christians like you are filthy thieves who think because they adopted something from pagans it belongs to you now?
“Christians like you”
Um…did you actually read the post?
I’M JEWISH YOU MESHUGGENEH
I’m Jewish and my whole raison d'être for writing this post is to object to Christian hegemony and the labelling of Christian culture as secular culture. FFS get a clue.
I’m remembering that one post…
“Reading comprehension on this site is piss-poor.”
“WHAT DO YOU MEAN?! WE DON’T PISS ON THE POOR!”
-_-
I’m Pagan and if I hear one more person try to claim that Christmas Trees have as much to do with us as they do with Christians I will fucking scream. First of all, most modern Pagan traditions don’t have a decorated tree as part of their practice. Outside of some reconstructionist Heathen trads, those of us who put up trees in December are doing so because we grew up with Christmas and don’t want to give it up, and the fact of its (possibly) Pagan origins is simply what allows us to make it relevant to us.
Second: Regardless of the origins of the practice, Christians are using it now and have been for ages. It’s called a Christmas tree for fuck’s sake. It is overwhelmingly associated with Christmas, which is overwhelmingly associated with Christianity and Christian culture. It is not secular, it is not neutral, and non-Christians are 100% justified in being upset when it’s displayed in government buildings and people try to pass it off as a “holiday” tree.
(@tikkunolamorgtfo that graphic is super helpful, thank you.)
That is simply not true. The xmas tree is associated with gifts provided by santa. In the US it is a national secular holiday. The only religious part of the holiday is the creche, or nativity, that some Christian sects set up to worship.
Christmas is NOT a “national secular holiday.” The other Jews I know don’t celebrate Christmas. The Muslims I know don’t celebrate Christmas. The Hindus I know don’t celebrate Christmas. The Buddhists I know don’t celebrate Christmas. Unless they’re part of an interfaith family, people of other religions don’t usually just up and celebrate Christmas. Because it’s A CHRISTIAN HOLIDAY.
Meanwhile, all those people I mentioned above? They DO celebrate Thanksgiving. They DO celebrate the 4th of July. Because those ARE secular holidays. Just because non-religious people of Christian backgrounds celebrate a version of Christmas without much religion, that doesn’t make it literally secular. It’s not.
